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Date: Sat,  6 Jan 90 01:56:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SPACE Digest V10 #382

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 10 : Issue 382

Today's Topics:
         Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive
           Re: NASA procurement bureaucracy at work
         Back Issues Journal of Spacecraft & Rockets
       Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive, transport of goods
               NASA employment
      Re: Relative distances and sizes in the Universe.
         Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive
     Re: Chris Robertson's "Henry bio" (was Re: who's out there?)
       Re: Scientific value of Apollo (was Re: Motives)
             Computational Fluid Dynamics
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 89 21:35:18 GMT
From: uceng![e-mail]  (daniel mocsny)
Subject: Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jay Skeer) writes:
>   2) Hazardous waist disposal
>There might be a possibility here. Anyone know how much waist disposal costs?
>But what about launch risks? Cristics complain about carefully build low mass
> radioactive substances.  Who would complain about tons of stuff, all of it
> really nasty?

Hazardous waste treatment is a complex field. Since almost any
compound or element in pure form has some sort of commercial value,
most waste streams contain otherwise valuable (but dangerous)
compounds or elements in dilute form. The stream is "waste" because
the cost of separating the stream into its constituents is higher than
the market value of those components. In other words, a "waste"
is a raw material you aren't smart enough to use yet.

The cost of launching a unit mass into space is (and will remain) much
higher than the cost of running that mass through almost any
commercial process. Therefore, to conserve launch costs, we would want
to process waste streams to extract only the least valuable and most
dangerous components for space disposal. But since this is not
economical to do already, what's the point?

The best way to reduce process waste is to (1) run your plants tighter
(remember, industry has to pay for every pound of waste, even if
disposal is free, because it has to make the waste out of something),
and/or (2) design new processes with higher yields.

Dan Mocsny
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 25 Dec 89 18:13:35 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!puzzle!khijol![e-mail]  (Edwin R. Carp)
Subject: Re: NASA procurement bureaucracy at work

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jay Glass) writes:
>otherwise-free upgrade of Microsoft Word 3.x to 4.0, I needed to write a
>full purchase order for the $5.50 handling fee. Worse yet, it was returned

If it was this cheap, why didn't you just order it yourself, pay for it
yourself, then do the paperwork later?  Saves much productive time and
headache.  It's also easier (usually) to justify reimbursing than it is
actual spending.

--------------------------- discard all after this line -----------------------
Ed Carp    N7EKG/5 (28.3-28.5) ...!attctc!puzzle!khijol!erc  (home) [phone]
Snail Mail:  2000 Cedar Bend Dr., #335, Austin, TX  78758

[Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message is soley for informa-
tional purposes only.  Use at your own risk.  No warranty expressed or
implied.]

Me and my AR-15/M-203/ARTS scope:
   gone to Panama to pick up an extra mil.  See ya!

"Good tea.  Nice house."  -- Worf

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 89 02:10:13 GMT
From: nyssa.CS.ORST.EDU![e-mail]  (Kean Stump)
Subject: Back Issues Journal of Spacecraft & Rockets

I ran across a dozen or so back issues.  Numbers are:
Vol 8 #1 Jan 1971
Vol 8 #2 Feb 1971
Vol 8 #7-#12 July-Dec 1971
Vol 9 #1 Jan 1972
Vol 9 #2 Feb 1972
Vol 9 #4-#8 April-August 1972

They weigh 3kg or so.  Rather than toss these, anyone want them?

kean

Kean Stump, College of Oceanography              Domain: kean@{cs,oce}.orst.edu
Oregon State University, Corvallis OR 97331-5503 UUCP  : tektronix!orstcs!kean
****OSU knows nothing about my opinions.  Absolutely nothing. So, don't ask.****
   Diplomacy : The art of saying "nice doggy", until you can find a big rock.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 89 23:07:14 GMT
From: milton!maven![e-mail]  (Games Wizard)
Subject: Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive, transport of goods

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (William Lewis) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Games Wizard) writes:
>> -We had less than 20 hours to get them a replacement unit.  And if you think
>> -that this is trivial, FED-EX does NOT go to moscow overnight, let alone
>> -some city in russia that I cant even remember the name of.  Turns out that
>> -we bought the controller a seat on an airplane to london, then paid somebody
>> -there to carry it through customs to a seat on a plane to moscow, then paid
>> -somebody there to carry it through customs to a seat on the plane for the final
>> -destination.  They got the thing about 20 minutes before showtime.
>> -
>> -2-3 hour travel time would have helped a lot.
>
>    The question is, how much would you have paid for 2-3 hour travel time;
> how often do things like this happen; and how much did the replacement weigh?

This was an example in order to refute the statement that packages would
never need these types of travel times.

The replacement weighed about 40 lbs.  We would have paid the price for the
faster service.  This situation has arisen before, and I imagine that it
will arise again.  ( Ever have a semi burn up en-route to a big show, and have
to replace the entire contents?  I know of a company this happened to. )
Rock-n-Roll is an inherently dangerous business to be in, and rapid
transportation is a necessity.  You should see the Showlites FED-EX bills.

I make this point only to illustrate that it can be made, and I'll bet that
there are other business that would like to send packages around the world
FAAASSSSTTT.

As people get used to faxing documents "instantly", and no longer have to wait
overnight for delivery, they get more used to FAST transaction times.  They
come to expect faster service.  Once the mid set is established, they will
expect faster transportation of certain types of goods as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trendy footer by:
            John Stevens-Schlick
            Internet?: [e-mail]
            7720 35'th Ave S.W. Seattle, Wa. 98126
            (206) 935 - 4384
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My boss dosn't know what I do.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 89 00:17:31 GMT
From: freezer![e-mail]
Subject: NASA employment


    I am interested in information about job oportunities at NASA
over the Summer. I have been told that there were addresses posted in
this news group, but I haven't found them.
                Paul Masters
                [e-mail]
                skymaste@128.175.13.17

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 89 02:39:52 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!ists!yunexus!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Relative distances and sizes in the Universe.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (22147-R McBurnett) writes:
>Something like this:  If the distance from the Sun to the Earth is 1
>inch, then a light year is 1 mile.  This gives me a very handy Real
>World referent for *LARGE* distances.

This suffers a bit because people don't have a real gut feeling for how
big a mile is.  The comparison I use when I talk about interstellar
propulsion is that if the solar system (the edges of which our first
probes recently reached after a decade in flight) is the size of the
head of a pin, its nearest neighbor is on the other side of a large
room (about 10m away).

The companion comparison is that if interstellar distances are in turn
reduced to about the width of that pinhead, the center of the galaxy is
on the other side of that room.
--
1972: Saturn V #15 flight-ready|     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
1989: birds nesting in engines | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 26 Dec 89 01:44:01 GMT
From: brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caesar.cs.montana.edu!ogicse!blake![e-mail]  (William Lewis)
Subject: Re: proposed "space-mail" incentive

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Games Wizard) writes:
-We had less than 20 hours to get them a replacement unit.  And if you think
-that this is trivial, FED-EX does NOT go to moscow overnight, let alone
-some city in russia that I cant even remember the name of.  Turns out that
-we bought the controller a seat on an airplane to london, then paid somebody
-there to carry it through customs to a seat on a plane to moscow, then paid
-somebody there to carry it through customs to a seat on the plane for the final
-destination.  They got the thing about 20 minutes before showtime.
-
-2-3 hour travel time would have helped a lot.

   The question is, how much would you have paid for 2-3 hour travel time;
how often do things like this happen; and how much did the replacement weigh?


--
[e-mail]        [phone]      Seattle, Washington

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 89 03:11:02 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Chris Robertson's "Henry bio" (was Re: who's out there?)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (bill davidsen) writes:
>  Are you trying to prove that *Henry* doesn't exist? I can assure you
>that he does, I met him at USENIX in Washington the year of the snow
>storm, and had the chance to be ignored in person ;-)

Sorry about that, Bill.  Tell you what -- I'm going to be in Washington
for Usenix again this winter, and I'll be perfectly happy to ignore you
again if you like. :-) :-)

(P.S. "the year of the snow storm" is insufficient data; there is *always*
a major snowstorm when Usenix is in Washington DC.  2 out of 2, so far.
Mark your calendar, folks -- it's the week of Jan 22-26 this time.)
--
1972: Saturn V #15 flight-ready|     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
1989: birds nesting in engines | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 29 Dec 89 04:53:25 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!ists!yunexus!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Scientific value of Apollo (was Re: Motives)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Szabo) writes:
>... this reasoning is quite wrong.  Automated
>missions use the same launchers everybody else (comsats, defense,
>etc.) uses.  Manned missions require their own oversized, specialized
>launchers that are useless for commercial activities...

The primary launcher for the more sizable unmanned missions these days
is Titan-Centaur.  Name one commercial mission that has used it.  (Hint:
there aren't any, and none are planned last I heard -- the Commercial
Titan configurations currently on offer don't use Centaur, as I recall.)
It was developed specifically for Viking, at considerable expense (which,
of course, is seldom charged against Viking).  (I'll post more on the
Voyager/Viking launcher history when I have a bit more time.)  Its primary
use is planetary missions, with a recent small sideline in heavy military
payloads.

Furthermore, the planetary people clearly would very much like a still
heavier launcher, with still less commercial potential.  They are very
badly cramped by the limitations of Titan-Centaur, especially when the
bigger missions like Mars sample return are considered.

>The recurring costs of Saturn missions would have been huge; probably
>greater than for Shuttle missions since Saturn was not at all reusable.

The recurring costs for the thirteen Saturn V launches that did occur
are estimated as approximately the same as that of the shuttle, per
kilogram, although comparisons are difficult because there are so many
variables to allow for.  It's true that the Saturn hardware as flown
was not reusable, but it is not clear that reusability has bought the
shuttle anything.  Two-thirds of the mass it lifts into orbit is overhead
to allow for reusability, and the refurbishment costs are truly immense.

And don't be too quick to dismiss the Saturn as entirely non-reusable.
There were serious plans for reuse of the first stage in the long run.
Indeed, a winged, reusable variant of the Saturn V first stage was *almost*
used instead of the SRBs as the shuttle booster.  The practical working
lifetime of the "expendable" F-1 was almost certainly greater than that
of the "reusable" SSME; certainly it was much cheaper despite being much
larger and rather more reliable.

>There would have been no commercial customers, and only very limited
>DoD use...

There is admittedly a problem here:  the Saturn was a huge leap upward
in size, and the market was not ready for it.  Given a vigorous Saturn
program, and the extensive space activity that implies, would the market
have grown?  Good question.  As it stands, it hasn't grown much --
indeed, in the West it's shrunk -- but whether this is cause or effect
is not so clear.
--
1972: Saturn V #15 flight-ready|     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
1989: birds nesting in engines | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jan 90 02:25:00 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!texbell!nuchat![e-mail]  (Norman C. Kluksdahl)
Subject: Computational Fluid Dynamics

I am searching for references on the subject of computational fluid
dynamics, specifically on the transonic and extreme hypersonic flight
regimes.  References should include real-gas effects and thermodynamic
heating at extreme velocities.  All replies would be highly appreciated.

Any other references on the subject of aerothermodynamics (and re-entry
heat transfer) would be useful.

Thanks in advance.

=====================================================================
Norman Kluksdahl
  ...!nuchat!moe

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V10 #382
*******************